Comments on: e on 4e D&D: If you build it, they will come. If you tear it down and rebuild it, they’ll be pissed for a while, but eventually they’ll get over it and come. http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/ Geek's Dream Girl Wed, 16 May 2012 18:52:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: e http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-4487 e Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:48:29 +0000 http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-4487 @ Ziles - I think that with all the supplements in the 3.x series, there were <i>plenty</i> of playable races, classes, skills, feats, etc. I enjoy 4e. I also enjoy 3.5. They're different and they both have their pros and cons. :) @ Ziles – I think that with all the supplements in the 3.x series, there were plenty of playable races, classes, skills, feats, etc. I enjoy 4e. I also enjoy 3.5. They’re different and they both have their pros and cons. :)

]]> By: Ziles http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-4468 Ziles Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:35:02 +0000 http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-4468 Ok this is my first post so bare with me as it might get a tad bit long for some I have been playin mmorpgs,live action and pen and paper rpgs for a very long time and i am always up for upgrades as it were however I am a firm beliver in if its not broke dont fix it I dont mind that they wanted to remake the game but if people have been playin by the same rules for however many years wouldnt it be best to guide players into the transition of 4th E by keeping the same rules as 3.X just adding to the game as a whole more playable races more skills feats ect. ??? just a question Ok this is my first post so bare with me as it might get a tad bit long for some I have been playin mmorpgs,live action and pen and paper rpgs for a very long time and i am always up for upgrades as it were however I am a firm beliver in if its not broke dont fix it I dont mind that they wanted to remake the game but if people have been playin by the same rules for however many years wouldnt it be best to guide players into the transition of 4th E by keeping the same rules as 3.X just adding to the game as a whole more playable races more skills feats ect. ??? just a question

]]> By: e http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-2062 e Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:22:05 +0000 http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-2062 @ Sharky - hehehhehe... that's the life of a Creative Writing major. Once you learn HOW to edit and you get over the fear of doing big edits, you find yourself getting really picky ;p @ Sharky – hehehhehe… that’s the life of a Creative Writing major. Once you learn HOW to edit and you get over the fear of doing big edits, you find yourself getting really picky ;p

]]> By: Sharky http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-2046 Sharky Sat, 30 Aug 2008 21:59:21 +0000 http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-2046 You just described every last one of my Creative Writing assignments/final papers in college... You just described every last one of my Creative Writing assignments/final papers in college…

]]> By: Brian http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-1094 Brian Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:32:38 +0000 http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-1094 I personally think that 3.X is the way to go, and that's what I'll be sticking with. I think that's what's been done here is that WotC tore down the system, rebuilt, and came up with something pretty darn different. (Which it should be, given it's a completely new edition) However, I think that now 3.X and 4E are different enough that they can't really be compared; one cannot be called "better" than the other. They cater to different tastes and playing styles. I personally think that 3.X is the way to go, and that’s what I’ll be sticking with.
I think that’s what’s been done here is that WotC tore down the system, rebuilt, and came up with something pretty darn different. (Which it should be, given it’s a completely new edition) However, I think that now 3.X and 4E are different enough that they can’t really be compared; one cannot be called “better” than the other. They cater to different tastes and playing styles.

]]> By: Graham http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-1040 Graham Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:38:20 +0000 http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-1040 @R. - False and lies. Hasbro didn't initiate the move to 4e. It was initiated by the D&D designers themselves, specifically Andy Collins (I believe) back in 2005. Play what you want to play, but this is not a cash grab from corporate. @R. -

False and lies. Hasbro didn’t initiate the move to 4e. It was initiated by the D&D designers themselves, specifically Andy Collins (I believe) back in 2005.

Play what you want to play, but this is not a cash grab from corporate.

]]> By: R. http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-1016 R. Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:48:30 +0000 http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-1016 I get what you're saying, but this isn't about going back and doing a gutsy re-write, this is about money. Hasbro needs to feed the monkey, so they're rolling out another edition to get fans to buy another core set (PHB, DMG, MM) and make another $90. Pathfinder is where it's going to be at. I get what you’re saying, but this isn’t about going back and doing a gutsy re-write, this is about money. Hasbro needs to feed the monkey, so they’re rolling out another edition to get fans to buy another core set (PHB, DMG, MM) and make another $90.

Pathfinder is where it’s going to be at.

]]> By: Brian http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-497 Brian Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:25:18 +0000 http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-497 I'm cautiously optimistic. Not for me, honestly. I discovered a few years ago that I'd slid into grognard territory and I find the gaming is quite pleasant there. But my own gaming desires are moving away from D&D right now and into terra incognita. The danger with starting over, what makes it a "gutsy" choice is that it might not work. You could very well end up with something that was worse than what you had before. I consider this extremely unlikely, but after the fumble that was the first version of Star Wars d20, I don't think it's impossible. My nightmare scenario is people figuring out that the optimal party build is a pair of warlords and everyone else playing warlocks and rogues. :/ Still, I think that's rather unlikely, and I know there are some folks that are going to love 4e. I'm really looking forward to seeing what sort of adventures people make with it. - Brian I’m cautiously optimistic. Not for me, honestly. I discovered a few years ago that I’d slid into grognard territory and I find the gaming is quite pleasant there. But my own gaming desires are moving away from D&D right now and into terra incognita.

The danger with starting over, what makes it a “gutsy” choice is that it might not work. You could very well end up with something that was worse than what you had before. I consider this extremely unlikely, but after the fumble that was the first version of Star Wars d20, I don’t think it’s impossible. My nightmare scenario is people figuring out that the optimal party build is a pair of warlords and everyone else playing warlocks and rogues. :/

Still, I think that’s rather unlikely, and I know there are some folks that are going to love 4e. I’m really looking forward to seeing what sort of adventures people make with it.

- Brian

]]> By: Mystrich http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-479 Mystrich Tue, 29 Apr 2008 04:59:03 +0000 http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-479 Bringing up Ray of Frost...actually, I'm going to go put that in the inside jokes post. Bringing up Ray of Frost…actually, I’m going to go put that in the inside jokes post.

]]> By: Graham http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-473 Graham Mon, 28 Apr 2008 04:06:06 +0000 http://geeksdreamgirl.com/2008/04/26/e-on-4e-dd-if-you-build-it-they-will-come-if-you-tear-it-down-and-rebuild-it-theyll-be-pissed-for-a-while-but-eventually-theyll-get-over-it-and-come/#comment-473 Ah, yes, I forgot about the Eberron elemental binding. But even with that, they gain yet another role in Eberron as the spies. Personally, I think that shifting them to trickster fey (which is their real-world roots after all) is probably for the best. Individual settings can always deviate, and it's nice to have a baseline. As for saves, yeah, I agree that the term is immediately recognizable. But that person probably wouldn't be able to tell you what it is. For instance, most of my players are new to the game. One of them decides to play a caster, and casts a spell. The first thing out of their mouth (every time, from every first-time caster I've seen) is "Okay, I roll an 18, do I hit?" At which point, I need to explain to them that they don't roll. Instead the other person rolls a save. Essentially, though they know the term, and they roll their own saves already, they still aren't familiar with exactly what a saving throw is. Even after many levels playing that character, they are only now starting to get the feel of whether something requires a roll from them or not. But not only is in not intuitive to them to not have to roll when they attack (after all, the fighter does, and their Ray of Frost does), it seems unfair to them. They no longer have control of their spells. This has been my experiences over the past 2 years, with new players coming in occasionally throughout that time. As such, it's obvious to me that the system needs to be changed. If you've played with it for years, you know it, but it just doesn't make sense to newbies. And that's a problem. Ah, yes, I forgot about the Eberron elemental binding. But even with that, they gain yet another role in Eberron as the spies.

Personally, I think that shifting them to trickster fey (which is their real-world roots after all) is probably for the best. Individual settings can always deviate, and it’s nice to have a baseline.

As for saves, yeah, I agree that the term is immediately recognizable. But that person probably wouldn’t be able to tell you what it is. For instance, most of my players are new to the game. One of them decides to play a caster, and casts a spell. The first thing out of their mouth (every time, from every first-time caster I’ve seen) is “Okay, I roll an 18, do I hit?”

At which point, I need to explain to them that they don’t roll. Instead the other person rolls a save. Essentially, though they know the term, and they roll their own saves already, they still aren’t familiar with exactly what a saving throw is.

Even after many levels playing that character, they are only now starting to get the feel of whether something requires a roll from them or not.

But not only is in not intuitive to them to not have to roll when they attack (after all, the fighter does, and their Ray of Frost does), it seems unfair to them. They no longer have control of their spells.

This has been my experiences over the past 2 years, with new players coming in occasionally throughout that time.

As such, it’s obvious to me that the system needs to be changed. If you’ve played with it for years, you know it, but it just doesn’t make sense to newbies. And that’s a problem.

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