e on 4e: Creating a Character
July 22, 2008 by e
Filed under About e, Dungeons & Dragons, Geek Life
Is it just me or is a lot more work to roll up a character in 4e?
Not that I MIND, because there’s definitely a lot of choices as far as specialization goes. This is also my first time playing any sort of caster, so that’s a new ballpark for me, too.
Anyway, I thought you’d might like to sneak a peek at my character sheet for Mielka Dawnhammer. Again, many thanks to Graham for putting up with my annoying questions (especially annoying questions spawned by my not fully reading the Cleric section of the PHB… oops!).
E. Foley is a geek girl extraordinaire. She writes great online dating profiles for geeks and non-geeks, helping clients all over the world find love. She is the National Online Dating Examiner, columnist at Dating Sites Reviews, and a ghostwriter for several other dating & relationships sites. She lives in Maryland with DaveTheGame and her two adorable cats, Mr. Peanut and Don Juan. (Email e, or follow @geeksdreamgirl on Twitter.)
Actually I don’t think it’s more work with 4e than it was in previous editions – when you start at first level – for me the old mechanisms were just in my head and now I gotta look them up.
What do you generally think of the 4th edition? I’ve played it once so far, with newbies and old-school dungeon masters on one table. And I was not very impressed to be honest. It really has some MMORPG flair and has taken the last bit of pro-roleplaying from the ruleset (I know this should come from the players but anyways…).
Besides this negative touch it was pretty easy from the basic rules – and very² balanced – though I’m not sure if I like this balance now. (Since I loved the old wizards *sniff*)
A bit more work than your Rogue, for level 1, yes, due to power selection. But not much.
And still far less than a 3.X spellcaster at any level.
But no, as long as you read your class’s section (the part before powers) and then follow the “how to make a character” section, it’s pretty easy, considering you’re learning a brand new ruleset while doing it.
Besides, I was playing WoW the entire time I was helping you, so it couldn’t be that hard.
And most of the issues we came upon were with making the stupid character sheet work right, and/or figuring out why it was doing things.
@TheLemming -
I’m curious as to what you feel detracts from the roleplaying, or from the pro-roleplaying. I see this argument around, but it always degenerates into “yes it does” “no it doesn’t” without anybody every explaining why.
So I’m curious about your take on it.
Ah I think I try to explain that feeling at least a bit from my view:
For once there was the removal of Craft, Profession and a lot of Knowledge Skills from the core rules as well as the perform skill. (Besides I think the bard was one of the most important core classes *sniff*
, but that’s just my two cents (and I didn’t too often play bards after all)).
More importantly – have a look at the various powers – they are all focussing on one thing – combat. The classes define rogues and rangers as strikers and they actually compare to fighters in one element – they do more damage but can’t stand as much.
(I know I’m exaggerating a bit *smile*)
But honestly if you as a new player and an old one after they created and played their first 4e character, both tell you (or told me) – it’s very much combat oriented rules and charactersheet.
All powers are used in a round-based way – as far as I’ve seen this yet. Most definitions of former spells (now powers as well) are based on “encounter” and that very much means combat from the rules.
So far I can only tell how a level 1 dungeon master with a lot of players feels, there is something missing for me.
I know there probably were good reasons to take care of style-feats and powers – and they did an astoundingly good job on balancing all classes.
So while this is now more a list of cons in the game, I think 4th edition has a few positive things as well, besides the balancing factor which seems to work pretty well from the start, they invented a better starting position of the characters overall (level 1 was pretty much incomparable in resourcefulness and playabilty in former editions). I very much like the approach of passive skills and the general skill system is a bit better now and doesn’t force most players to take a few levels in rogue to be “skilled”
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I know this description might not be 100% accurate but I tried my best (given my english might be hard to read – apologies in advance as I’m no native speaker).
o_0 Just you. 4e characters are a lot quicker and simpler to make.
Well, I just played my first 4e game last weekend with a group that’s totally new to 4e. Character generation definitely took a while, but there was a big learning curve to it. The funny thing was, it was easiest for the most inexperienced player (my wife, who has dated gamers for years – she jokes she should have a “Geek Magnet” t-shirt, but never played DnD before).
All she said was “I want to play the one with horns and fangs”. Tiefling it is. “I want to teleport and blast things”. Warlock it is. We had a character together in 15 minutes. The more experienced played hummed and hawed over powers and feats, and it took quite a while, but after having built about 4 characters and helped with 4 more, I could rattle something off in 10 minutes. 3e took longer, I think.
Also, I have to disagree with the “role-playing taken out of the ruleset” statement. The skill challenges, once the players figured out how they worked, were a huge boost to role-playing. Having the aforementioned Tiefling warlock (with great bluff skills) say “I warn the captured kobold that we are only the first wave of hundreds of others, but if he tells us where the lair is, we will spare the lives of his kin.” and rolling a 20 on the bluff check was an excellent moment that I will cherish for a long time. Everyone was involved, active and thinking up cool ways to use their skills.
The rules faciliate involvement, which leads to role-playing naturally. But as always, you (the DM) has to set the standard, and raise the bar if necessary.
@TheLemming -
Well, the knowledge skills were merely combined and condensed, so little was lost there. The craft/profession is understood, but I can’t remember the last time anyone in my group too either (except for one player I have now with Craft (stonework). To us, they always seemed to be either unnecessary for the roleplaying, or trying to force the roleplaying, as opposed to encouraging it while giving player choice the reins. And with the feeling that they were unnecessary to roleplay whatever you wanted, we never took them, because there were far more useful (and flavourful) skills to take. (Also, the Craft rules were annoyingly complex.)
To us, ignoring those skills in 3.X ended up encouraging roleplaying, not diminishing it, because nobody will say “You aren’t a pirate! Where’s your Profession (pirate) skill?” You no longer needed a skill to roleplay your character.
Now that they’ve done with 4e what we’ve been doing for years, well, we’re pretty happy.
Powers are definitely (almost) all combat, which is intentional. Who needs powers to roleplay? I don’t want rules interfering with my roleplaying, personally. I want rules where I need them. Combat and conflict resolution.
(Though a power that lasts until the end of an encounter still works outside of combat. The encounter doesn’t mean combat, it means whatever situation you’re in. So if you’re climbing a mountain and cast a flight spell that lasts until the end of the encounter, it lasts until you fly up that mountain (unless it has another duration listed). If it’s a per-encounter power, then it refreshes once you rest at the top of the mountain.)
That’s the view from this side, at least.
I’ll never claim 4e is for everyone. It isn’t. But a lot of people don’t give it the chance to explain itself that it deserves.
@Asmor – hahhaha, well, moving has certainly taken a lot of brainpower, so maybe I’m just a little stupider lately
Graham I agree with you, especially on the last sentence. That’s why I started my 4e round at first and I will continue learn this edition and learn as much of it as possible.
You might be right, someone does not need Powers for Roleplaying Issues, but I think it’s mainly the wizard’s and cleric’s off combat-site spells that I am missing in lower levels – I understand why they’ve been reshaped and partially made it into rituals. It’s just quite different.
And regarding WickedMurph’s post above – ye the newbies did best with the new edition. It’s the old ones that played 2nd and 3rd editions for ages that take longer to adapt
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After all 4th edition will have a fine selection of players which will enjoy it more than other editions. I for my part have not decided yet whether I start adapting 4th edition to my needs or take from 4th into another edition what I like
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Agreed with everything, TheLemming. There’s a big part of forgetting what you thought you knew when switching editions (just as there was at the 2e/3e switch).
But the big thing to remember is, it’s different. That doesn’t automatically mean it’s worse, nor does it automatically mean it’s better.
It’s just different, and it takes a bit of different thinking to use.
Personally, I’m incredibly happy about the rituals. Whenever I played a caster, I would memorise combat spells, keeping noncombat ones and situational ones on scrolls for when they’re needed. When the cleric in my current game started up, she memorised all the flavourful spells, and then complained and was disappointed when she wasn’t able to hold her own in combat.
Combat spells are needed at a moment’s notice. Non-combat spells are less urgent. Scrolls and wands allowed me to separate them in 3.X, and Rituals will fill the same need in 4e.
Heck, they can even come on scrolls.
But why the big switch to make them completely separate?
Well, three main reasons that I can see.
1) This was they can have costs, as no power has costs associated with it. Both costs to learn and costs to cast.
2) This way, you don’t need to be a Cleric to cast Raise Dead. You could be a barbarian leader of a shamanistic tribe. You could be a rogue with a little bit of knowledge of the arcane. You can be a Paladin.
3) There was an issue with 3.X scrolls and wands (staves at higher levels). They essentially allowed a caster to incredibly exceed the expected power they would normally have. A level 20 wizard without scrolls who bought a magic belt, hat, dagger, boots, and robe would be far less powerful than if that same wizard had spent all his money on scrolls and staves of Meteor Swarm, Wail of the Banshee, Weird, Energy Drain, and Time Stop. By restricting scrolls to s certain subset of spells (the noncombat ones) and making casting times longer, they allowed for players like me to supplement their combat spells, while preventing game-breaking power increases.
In any case, I encourage you to give 4e a chance, even if you decide not to play it. And if something just isn’t making sense, ask about it. There may be a good explanation.
I’d actually say it’s a tad easier.
About a month ago, one of my friends set up a 4E game so we could run through it and see how we liked the system. So there I am, wincing my way through character generation (I like creating concepts, sure, but actually putting numbers to sheet is the worst part of the game for me). But I have a few ideas, and I end up finishing my rogue before anyone else at the table is even close to done. So I’d have to say the character-building process is more streamlined than the prior editions.
Now the question is how it will hold up when I’m creating a character rather than a build….
Humms not sure what you meani can make a char in 15 mins, there is so very little choice now, every thief fighter war seems the same, the only diffrence is the roleplay of the characters,
SO basic the system is easier but you need an extra imaginative head to describe the powers how your characters would “cast them”
im not power game im a fluff gamer but so far looks easy and nice, only complaiers i see are power gamers, who need to have many +1 and +2s sure there are ways and good way sto max and min but for me its easyer to show and teach, so long as you have a good RPG background i can work in the stats dont both me to much..
P.s i am worried about my wizard players thought seem to have the hardest time adjusting i really wanna give them loads of none combat or non offensive spells to choose from.
grease, jump, illusions, etc.. im dunno wether to go for new rituals or new powers of feats just yet… thought.
we need a offical non combat caster book! and the thevery skill one skill does all its bit thief takes a lot of the lime light now as main damage dealer, and main avoid traps and encounters skills
P.s i like new combaty cleric too.
Really? I found it so much easier and faster. Skills were much more of a hassle, and since I tended to pick spellcasters, most characters used to end up done while I was still working. Now in the time it used to take me to pick everything, I can teach someone 4e it seems.
Also, looking at the sheet:
1. Your powers seem pretty melee based, and as nice as a 19 Wisdom is, an 18 gives the same bonus. I’d say take out the 3 points to lower it by 1 and bring Strength to 14 and put that 1 point in Con. The +2 on Str based attacks will help with your encounter and melee at-will powers.
2. Where is the daily power to reduce damage by 10 for you and an ally coming from?
Nevermind me, I didn’t see the magic sheild. You really need to add an edit button so I don’t have to triple post.
@Mystrich -
I firmly believe it feels like so long to e solely because she:
- has never made a 3e caster, and
- is paralysed by choice.
Seriously, it took her 10 minutes to choose 3 skills.
As far as the Str/Wis thing goes, it isn’t a point buy. Additionally, the melee powers are only there because she wanted healing powers (Healing Strike is actually recomended in the Devited Cleric build), and I encouraged her to take one melee at-will power if she was going to take melee and close encounter/daily powers.
As she goes up in level, the majority she will take will likely be healing powers, or ranged and close attacks.
So no need to worry.
IT WAS A HARD CHOICE!!
4e character creation and resource management is slightly more complex than 3e for non-casters. The tradeoff is that is’s much easier than 3e for casters (and remember back in 3e that 7 of 11 core classes were casters), and high level casters don’t break the game.
I haven’t tried 4th ed yet but the fact that I can’t convert my feral human mineral warrior – fighter, cleric, human paragon, barbarian, frenzied bezerker, totemist, warblade into a 4th version has me upset..
Ok that was a joke, I’m not upset. Hes fine wreaking havoc in 3.5 where he belongs.
On a side note powergaming AND roleplaying IS possible. So many people seem to think otherwise. Its usually due to powergamers who just suck at roleplaying me thinks.
I think it’s more that some people (both powergamers and anti-powergamers) think powergaming is a substitute for roleplaying.