Dear Anon-O-Box,
Why do girls say they want someone nice and open with their feelings, when they then only respond to self-centered jerks who insult them?
-Kind but Confused
Dear KBC,
As with many things concerning the heart and psychology, the answer to this really varies depending on the person in question. If you’re talking about a specific girl, here’s some common issues:
It’s possible that the girl is initially responding not to cruelty or arrogance, but confidence. Sadly, some people have a problem telling the difference, especially when it’s a first impression. Confidence is to be desired, arrogance or cruelty is not, but sometimes people of both sexes make a bad judgement call.
Perhaps the girl has low self-esteem. When she talks to you about what she really wants, she’s really saying it to herself. Maybe she doesn’t even consciously know this yet; maybe, as she talks about her desires, she’s working through in her mind what she really wants.
Maybe this girl has no idea that the object of her desire is a jerk. You might have seen a side of him that she hasn’t. People often act one way when they’re comfortable, and completely differently when they’re trying to impress someone.
Now, those were assuming you’ve witnessed a girl say she wants one thing and respond to something else. However, I’ve heard many guys bring up this question, and often they’re speaking in generalized terms – they assume all girls say they want one thing, and they assume all girls respond to jerks and insults. This is simply not true.
We here at Geek’s Dream Girl don’t subscribe to the whole pick-up artist mentality – that dating requires manipulation or deception. And we’re women who require respect. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever met a girl who likes to be insulted. A little back-and-forth teasing is one thing, but most women can tell the difference between humor and meanness (again, barring a deeper problem, like a self-esteem issue).
The short answer is, you probably don’t want to date a girl who responds to jerks, whatever the reason. There are plenty of women out there who truly go for the nice guy – and when you find her, the search will have been worth it.
About Anon-O-Box
It’s because the nice guys aren’t a challenge.
.-= Joe´s last blog ..Heh. Or something. =-.
It’s because nice guys are generic. They’re boring.
They’re the dinner and a movie option, they like long walks on the beach, goofs just looking for their ball. Yaaaawn. They’re afraid to be different. I ignore nice girls like this because they’re so generic I feel that something is being concealed. No one could be possibly that bland and not have some crazy secrets to spring on you.
Interesting, funny people often aren’t..super nice. See comedians and politicians, some of the most well liked, but least ‘nice’ people around. Nice is for children. Adults curse, drink alcohol, watch pornography and engage in activities that are not nice, like stealing retirement funds or defrauding corporations. They beat criminals with nightsticks and put people in jail for long periods of time.
Being nice makes you seem childlike and innocent..unsuitable for adult relations.
Nice guys are also..nice. Why is he always so nice? Can you count on him to back you up in a fight? (Violent or legal?) In an emergency, will he be of any use? If you have enemies, will he eliminate them or capitulate to them?
Sometimes people aren’t just looking for pleasant company, they’re looking for a mate that can actually help them achieve their goals, and some goals require you to not be so nice.
In the context of geeks, geeks are often made fun of, teased or bullied. A girl wants to know that you’ll defend her, because more often than not in school no one stood up for her. Defending doesn’t constitute slinking away quietly, defeated. You definitely need to show you can win at confrontation socially (And in some rare cases, physically).
If you’re a nice guy, you also need to show that you can be tough when the situation calls for it. That’s the traditional male-female relationship. There are certainly women that aren’t interested in following that pattern, and if they genuinely are not..conventional advice will be of no use to you. But that’s a good guideline to go by. If you are nice, get an edge.
“Nice guys” vs. “jerks” is probably the most oft-discussed topic on dating and relationships since there have been places to discuss dating and relationships. Here are a couple of other explanations I’ve seen.
The first came from a girl who realized she was attracted to jerks and did a little self-analysis to figure out why. What she realized is that she gets a bigger ego-boost from a guy who treats her nice and is a jerk to everyone else than from a guy who treats everyone nice. In other words, the ego-boost she gets from a guy is in proportion to how much nicer he treats her than he treats other people.
The second is that some girls see a jerk as a challenge. They like to think they can take a guy like that and help him smooth over the rough edges, clean up his act, turn him into someone nicer. These are the girls for whom the ego-boost is in proportion to how much they can get a guy to change. As such, the guys with a lot of room for improvement are viewed as better opportunities than the guys who don’t need much improvement.
Many, perhaps most, of the girls who follow either of the above patterns are doing so on a subconscious level and are probably not really that aware of their reasons for acting as they do. It should also be pointed out that getting an ego-boost from relationships with others is generally a good thing, and is the reason most if not all of us seek out relationships with others. However, it’s a good idea to step back now and then and ask why I’m attracted to this person.
mwalimu: Good post. If what you’ve said is correct, it makes me wonder a few things though:
Does it pays off more to be a “Bad Guy” or is it better to avoid that kind of girl?
“Bad Guy”
- Now I know your post is not talking about a “Good Guy” pretending to be a “Bad Guy” to get the girl, but I just wanted to explore that
- Not only would the “Good Guy” have to go against his own nature, but he’ll bring a lot of negativity to him from all the people he’s being a jerk to
- The 1st type of girl you’ve talked about seems to want some sort of favoritism…she gets something that the “Bad Guy” isn’t giving to anybody else, and that makes her feel good
- The 2nd type of girl seems to want to change the “Bad Guy”. So a “Nice Guy” in masquerade will have to act like a major douche, and slowly go back to being like himself…a nice guy. However does this mean the girl would lose interest in him when he reverts back to being a good guy?
Avoiding these kinds of Girls
- It makes me think these kinds of girls are “Fools Gold”, you think they’re very “valuable”, but they’re not
- The 1st type of girl sounds like she got her own confidence or ego issues….she can’t generate her own confidence & needs to get it from somebody else. That and she seems kind of selfish as she wants the most “feel good” payoff
- I can’t decide whether I think the 1st type of girl is lazy either…not wanting to work for that “feel good” feeling or wait for the lesser “feel good” to accumulate. Sounds like she wants instant gratification and can’t go long without it. Lack of patience?
- The 2nd type of girl seems like she gets a high off of changing something bad to good. Now that’s all good and fine when it comes to other things, but isn’t changing a person a bad thing?
- And like I said above wouldn’t she get dis-interested after she succeeds in changing you? So then it becomes a careful balance of rebelling against her change and giving in to her changes….because if you are too inflexible in changing she’ll get too frustrated & give up, and if you let her succeed too much…you’re not challenging enough.
- I don’t know, this 2nd type of girl sounds kind of selfish as well as she wants things her way and is not too accepting if it isn’t. Sounds close-minded as well and not a team player…wanting to be in control.
I think in the end it sounds best to avoid these kinds of girls if you’re a “Nice Guy” as these girls seems to be “Fools Gold”. They seem to have some pretty serious issues underneath. I mean how meaningful and lasting of a relationship can one hope to form with people like that? I guess it depends if you’re looking for a short term payoff or long term payoff. I’m one more inclined to a long term payoff.
Anyways, that’s just my take on this. I sure most girls like that aren’t conscious of what they’re doing or not 100% like that. However if they can’t figure it out themselves or care they’re like that…maybe avoidance of people like that is the best choice.
Is there any faults in my logic or analysis? Let me know! =)
@mwalimu
Those are some good points, particularly the first one. I could see how that could happend and would contribute to the perception that women prefer jerks. Of course, at the risk of stating the obvious, the self-defeating aspect of that behavior is that if you date someone who is a jerk to most people, then he/she will most likely begin treating you similarly sooner or later.
I will also say in response to messerole’s comment that while I believe what you say is true for some people, it is perfectly possible to be a assertive and successful person while also generally being a “nice guy” (or girl).
then he/she will most likely begin treating you similarly sooner or later
Or at minimum, alienate all of the other people you otherwise like.
The self-esteem issue is a critical one, though. So much female advertising is so geared towards implying that you suck unless you look like/do X. There are many women (and probably men) in abusive relationships who stay either because they don’t think they’ll find anyone better, or (in the most extreme cases) because they think they deserve it.
.-= Graham´s last blog ..Damn you, Dave! You and your… logic… =-.
My guess–You’re not actually what a girl means when she says “someone nice and open with their feelings”.
Really, if you’re an open person, why ask anonymously for an internet stranger’s advice? Why not actually discuss this with the girl in question?
Likewise, you say that the guys she dates are self-centered and insulting. But there’s a fine line between a guy who’s self-centered and insulting and one who’s in tune with himself and unafraid to say what’s on his mind.
Nice is a very nebulous word, and it’s entirely possible that she’s using a different definition of it than you are.
I totally empathise with Kind but Confused.
I grew up in a fairly feminist atmosphere believing that women were superior and I should aim be the ideal New Man (an 80′s concept for those of you lucky enough to miss it). Of course by the time I was an adult the New Man was out of fashion and women were freely admitting that they preferred more traditional masculine men. But too late – my personality was already too far developed.
The thing is, over all kinds of timescales, men will modify their behaviour to whatever gets the most positive feedback from women. The strongest feedback for men is not verbal but love, affection and, yes, sex. So when girls ask why man are all jerks… it’s because ‘jerks’ are rewarded and ‘nice guys’ are not. Over time many nice guys feel ignored or rejected and so become a bit resentful. Yes I’m in that process now. I really don’t know what’s going to happen to me in that department, we will just have to wait and see.
For Kind and Confused, my advice, unreliable as it may be, is to be honest with girls that you like and don’t hide your feelings; but don’t feel you have to hang around if your heart gets broken. Cutting ties is perfectly human and acceptable. In the end though do what you feel is right.
Hey. KBC. I am one of you. I am the typical “nice guy”. I got “you are such a good friend” more times than I care to count in high school.
High school is where stuff like that will peak, but occurrences of things like that happening will continue to stay significant probably until you hit your mid to late 20s, and the people that you hang out with also hit that point, or at least it did for me.
Don’t spend those years pining over the girls that see you only as a friend. Spend those years figuring out just who you are. Once you hit the mid-late 20s, the fact that you know who you are, and are comfortable in who you are, you start becoming much more attractive to women.
A successful relationship requires that the partners be able to support each other. If you don’t have a good grounding in who you are, you won’t be able to really support the other person.
I agree with what Marcel said. And oddly enough I think I got a lot of the same responses from guys that I was interested during high school. I guess I must be the odd girl out to get reject for being the “nice girl”.
I did date a jerk or two in college until I started dating a geek like myself. I honestly think that there are a lot of girls out there who need time to understand that the right guy for her has been there all along. I know that I don’t do well when people tell me what to do or who to date.
I firmly believe that the “nice guy” does win in the end, just takes longer than they would like. Anyways best of luck to Kind But Confused.
“Over time many nice guys feel ignored or rejected and so become a bit resentful.”
Shilling: Great post…I think 80′s influence is what happened to me as well, and I feel the same way.
Marcel: I agree with everything you said. I didn’t know who I was until my late 20′s. However I think it would be hard to just shrug off girls like that at the time before you know who you are. I think nice guys are kind of forced to experience that and get scarred by it.
“I got “you are such a good friend” more times than I care to count…”
I never know how to interpret that line when it’s said to me. It’s even worse if the girl says she thinks of you as a brother (That’s the kiss of death, why would a girl say that to a guy? Would any guy take that as a compliment or an insult?) That’s like telling somebody at work you always talk to & have lunch with, “you’re such a good co-worker, I always enjoy talking to you about my problems…but I don’t want to hang out with you outside of work”.
I always wonder if the girl is just being sincere or they’re telling you they’re not interested. I’m suspecting the latter, has any of you guys ever been told that by a girl and the girl ended up interested in you? Have any of you girls ever said that to a guy you’re interested in?
Whenever I heard that line, I take it somewhat negatively now because I don’t know how to take it, which is unfair. If a girl was sincere it would be so much more positive and less confusing if they said “You’re such a great/good/nice guy”.
I think girls should be discouraged from using the “you are such a good friend” line to try to get guys to back off. I think a guy should respond light heartedly “Sorry, what do you mean by that? Do you mean you’re enjoying hanging out together and would like to spend more time doing things together?”. I think the way the girl would respond to that should tell you if she was being sincere or not.
Okay not to be totally one sided here, do guys ever tell girls they think of them as a “good friend” or “like a sister” in order to get the girl to back off?
My philosophy has always been “I’d rather finish last as a nice guy than first as an [expletive deleted]“, and the same is true for dating.
At the end of the day…if I can honestly say that I am who I want to be not because I want to be with a girl, or achieve a goal, but because I honestly DO want to be the way I am…then I can sleep at night
.-= Sharky´s last blog ..A Voice Actor Has More Than One Voice. =-.