The other day, I was talking to my brother, and he said something about playing role-playing games.
“But I don’t play role-playing games,” I said, surprised.
“You’re playing a role-playing game right now,” he said. We were playing World of Warcraft. “My character is a beer-swilling dwarf.”
I let him win the argument at the time, but since then, it’s really got me wondering: Should I count something like World of Warcraft, or other similar video games, as role-playing?
I don’t think I’ve ever had a thought, in character, in all the years I’ve been playing. More to the point, I don’t think I’ve ever encountered anyone else entirely in character, in all the years I’ve been playing. And I technically play on RP servers.
But this just underscores how much I don’t know about table-top role-playing, either. I know how these games are supposed to go, but do people really get in character in table-top games? Or is it really just the same as playing a video game? And then there’s the whole larp thing, which I confuse too easily with everything else…
So what I want to know is: Do you consider a game like World of Warcraft role-playing? Have you actually seen people playing WoW in character, or have you yourself? And then what about console RPGs, like Final Fantasy?
Maybe everyone else is experiencing WoW differently, and I’m the only one devoid of imagination. Oh, but just for the record: I have been in WoW instances with the brother in question and never have I actually witnessed him behaving like a beer-swilling dwarf, either in my headphones or in text. Just sayin.’
About j
I think that video games in the RPG genre are a bit further away from the “role-playing” aspect because it simply isn’t possible (at this point) to program for every possible interaction. The players are shoved into a particular character (or set of characters) and play through a particular story but they are never acting out the role themselves.
But it’s just as easy to play table-top games that way too. Dungeons & Dragons can easily become a “bingo” of sorts, where people are just rolling dice and calling out numbers to see if they’ve managed to kill the creatures that they are happened to stumble into randomly.
“Role-playing”, in the strictest sense, requires participation from the players. It requires each of them to think outside of rules and numbers and dice and see the “world” that the collective imaginations of the participants creates. A good DM can go a long way here, but in the end you can bring the horse to water…
if you haven’t done a tabletop gaming experience, you really should. it’s like everything you wish you could find in a video game but cannot. and it’s relatively inexpensive. not to mention the fun of being around actual, real people rather than staring at a monitor.
as for how “in-character” you get, that’s something that either grows on you or doesn’t. some people may just play the mechanics of the game, but if you have a good DM, they’ll reward players for being more creative. which is something you can almost never do in a video game.
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I found it hard at first to get into RP during D&D. Not because of any stigma with the act of being in character, but because I just wasn’t very confident in my ability. I got better with it, and it is a lot of fun to really make decisions based on my character and not my best judgement as a player; to give my character faults and personality, not just a min-max build..
As far as WoW, no. It just doesn’t conduct itself as an RPG. It’s a fantasy character advancement game, and trying to stay in character doesn’t work because the system fundamentally isn’t really set up for it. Many years ago, when I played Ultima Online I saw MMO role-playing at its finest though. It is what made the game great for me, and why I played it much longer and more often than I have any other MMO since. Like-minded role-players would gather to create their guilds, place their player housing in one area, and form their own entire villages. You had a visible community that you could interact with and there would be all sorts of great RP. Games just want to appeal to the power-hungry kids and those who suffer from an almost (or actual) OCD desire to get some displayable sense of achievement so that they can feel good through the recognition of others.
I think I got a little off topic there, but ultimately my point is this: really giving in to the interactive story and community of role-playing is a rich and rewarding act that allows you to explore a mind and perspective external to you. There’s a reason psychologists (or psychiatrists, I can never really remember the difference) use it as a tool to help people. Going to a D&D game and giving yourself entirely to being someone else for a little while can be an amazing experience and I suggest everyone at least give it a shot.
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Speaking as a long time DM, I view role playing, in the strictest sense of the term, as exactly what it sounds like. Playing a role. That doesn’t mean that, as a player, you can’t step outside of character during a play session. In fact, it’s been my experience that most people tend to play tabletop RPGs as players and get into character for personal interactions or emotional scenes.
As far as video games go, I’d consider WoW or Final Fantasy as role playing, albeit much more limited than a traditional tabletop game where you can do virtually anything. In games like Final Fantasy, you can’t even choose your character. But, in the player’s mind, they can still get so deeply enthralled in that character that I’d consider it role playing. This is especially true of video games where you get to design your own character (Elder Scrolls comes to mind). But, just like in the tabletop games, you’ll always have someone who is a metagamer, or someone who plays the game as “just a game” and never actually roleplays.
I’ve said a lot just to get to the simple point that I think that, whatever type of RPG you’re playing, the amount of actual roleplaying involved is specific to the individual player.
This is a little bit tricky, if only because I have successfully avoided WoW and never actually paid for a MMO. (I was in the Horizons beta, but that’s my only experience with MMOs that weren’t MUDs.) In Horizons, though, I never did get into character; but that’s not the point of any MMO, ultimately. MMOs are games of numbers and statistics and showing off your character(s), and that’s commonly confused with being a RPG.
However, console RPGs are a bit different for me. They’re still not a roleplaying game in the sense that I’m in character; rather, they’re much more like reading a novel or watching a movie. I’m invested in the characters but I’m ultimately not making the decisions for any of those characters – especially in modern CRPGs, one’s just following a semilinear path for 40+ hours and watching the story play out. Interspersed with the story, one has exploration games, tactical battles, puzzles, etc. – but no roleplaying.
Unfortunately, I feel the same way about the BioWare-style attempts to integrate moral decisions into the game (see KOTOR, Mass Effect, etc.). Because these decisions are black or white, with no useful shades of gray, one makes a single decision – good or evil? – when creating the character. After that, one chooses the good or evil response every time. This is exacerbated by the stat bonuses granted at the extremes of the moral spectrum. (Moreover, the rare decision to go the other way is usually based on getting a particular reward from the conversation rather than the character itself.)
Now, all of this is not to say that it’s impossible to roleplay in video games, although I’d have a very hard time seeing it done in a single-player game. In a MMO, though, that opportunity does exist; I remember a story from a Fear The Boot episode a while back about an ‘orc’ guild in Ultima Online that played the part so well they got an ‘official’ license to the castle they’d claimed in character from the game’s admins. But that sort of thing takes a lot of willing people and is very hard to do in a game not explicitly encouraging roleplay. (It’s why I stuck to MUDs for a very long time.)
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I understand where you’re coming from, I think. There is a large want to either sit back and go through the motions of an MMO, letting the game play you, or the hardcore gamer aspect of playing the system the best it can be. There is not, however, much want in any MMO for actual role playing.
To me role-playing is playing a character, almost like acting with the vicariousness of writing. RP’ing is wearing a piece of armor b/c I like the way it looks, not because it has better stats. RP’ing is spending hours developing my character through conversation & exploration with other players’ characters.
Of the many, many MMO-”RPG”s I’ve played, I’ve only ever truly made and faithfully played characters for RP in one: Star Wars Galaxies. Compared with all other MMOs, RP’ing was very common, even for those players who knew game glitches and exploits. I remember spending hours decorating my houses, spending time at virtual parties, hosting events that even dev’s joined in on (spawning mobs for us to fight and what-not), and exploring various worlds and the depths of space. As an example, once, while playing a smuggler in the gun turret of a friend’s ship, I attacked a stronger player’s vessel and jettisoned to a nearby planet, escaping death and letting my pilot (friend) die in true smuggler fashion.
I don’t understand why you would have any sort of disconnect from the RP part of table-top RPGs, however. To me, table-top RPGs are the best and easiest way to experience true RP. Maybe I just feel that way because the only people I had to play D&D with were theater majors…?
As far as how I feel about single-player RPGs, I can get into those stories much more easily. I’m playing a story; it’s like watching a very elaborate movie or well developed mini-series. The only difference is that the director/producer is listening to at least some of the things I want the story to be like, and I have direct control over some portion of the content, even if that content is normally only combat/action related. Anyway, console RPGs are easier to get into (for me) because there’s no other non-RPing players around and I don’t need to play for months gathering gear to progress to from episode 2.0.0.1 to 2.0.0.2 in the story line.
And for the record, no, when I play WoW, I do not act like a sexy, snobbish, pale, female BE Healadin, ogre-ish Orc DK, or stand-offish, prefers-to-solo BE hunter.
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My experience of WoW and RPing matches my years of experience with f2f tabletop RPGs: people slide seamlessly in and out of character as the situation calls for (and allows for) it. It’s difficult to RP between NPCs and PCs since the NPCs won’t “play along” after all — but I do know one player who regularly “talks to” NPCs (with open Says) in character, much to the bemusement and amusement of others around them.
The only “real” RPing happens between PCs in a game like WoW. I don’t even play on an RP server but I’ve seen in-character conversations happen in guild chat that go on and on. I know players whose mail between their own toons, much less to others, has RP elements. (Mail from the adventurer to the banker: “You need to keep these Plain Letters for me now. Since I’m making you my secretary as well as accountant, I’ll double your pay.”)
You’re right that I don’t hear it in Vent — maybe we get too self-conscious — and different players have different comfort levels with RPing even in chat. But yes, I definitely see it and do it myself on at least some of my characters.
I’ll have to agree with @enricobianco–I’ve always seen RPG video games further from the actually role playing game aspect of pen & paper games.
I’m an avid WoW player, and when I was first starting out, I tried life on an RP server, found it very difficult to enjoy questing and guild chatter, and taxed me like D&D does these days. Maybe its that I’m not participating like I used and instead, I’m calling out numbers on the dice when it comes to my turn around in combat. I remember enjoying both WoW and D&D as places I could expand my imagination, but these days I very rarely get into a role-playing mood.
So I guess what I’m trying to say is, I don’t consider games like WoW role-playing games, even though I have seen people (including myself) role-play on it before; role-playing online isn’t as prominent as in our local D&D game.
Online RP is a very strange thing. I’ve found that the strongest character depths were always found early on in online chat rooms, where there weren’t any game systems to detract from it. When there’s nothing but you and a keyboard, more of a character tends to shine through.
Nowadays? Second Life. There are entire communities there that are nothing but RP all the time. In fact, I’ve seen stronger character interaction there than I’ve ever seen at a tabletop game.
I don’t play WoW, but I’ve played MMOs and CRPGs quite a bit in my life. I’ve recently come to table-top RPGs and, before that, I used to MUSH. Each of these are very different from the other.
To really draw a distinction, here, we have to define (at least loosely) what we mean by “role playing”. Is it merely a game where I play a role? That’s really vague. Is it more role-play-ey if I have a say in creating the character? How much control? Do I have to be able to make moral choices on behalf of that character (what kind of armor to wear is not a moral choice, in general)? Do they have to be meaningful in the world of the game? How much meta-gaming is appropriate or expected?
I’m not going to try to answer those, I’m just saying that there’s a huge grey area, here. For instance, in the Knights of the Old Republic games you get to choose your character’s gender, appearance and class and then control how they level up (I think the mechanics are loosely based on D20?). Throughout the games, you’re given choices to which there are often an obviously good and obviously evil option. That sounds pretty role-play-ey, but the choices you make affect the game world in mostly only cosmetic ways. Compare Mass Effect (by the same folks), where your choices have somewhat more impact on the world. Or Fable, where the plot remains mostly unchanged, but random NPCs notice if you’re a horrible person or especially good.
On MUSHes and around a table (at least MY table) I think that considerably less meta-gaming is expected than on an MMO. I suppose an MMO might be designed to encourage more in-character discussion of the things that are currently discussed out of character, but I don’t really think that’s what most MMOers want… even on RP servers. At my table, I was delighted that I couldn’t tell (until we talked about it after the session) if one of my players was frustrated with me or whether his character was frustrated with the NPC I was playing.
Oh. I can’t edit my post now. I should say: His character was frustrated with the NPC. He was just very in character. Sorry for posting twice.
I feel that MMO’s are a different kind of role playing than table top games. I do agree with everything above, but I think a lot of people overlook the fact that people still take on a role/personality different than their own when they get online.
I saw this in retrospect a lot in myself, through out most of high school I was a loner, I’d sit at the back of the gym at lunch so I didn’t have to interact with other students. But when Final Fantasy XI came out I became someone else. I took on a totally new personality. It’s true I never talked or acted like the “beer-swilling dwarf” or playful cat girl that I played as, but I was a sociable person online, often a group leader, and for a short period a leader in a link shell (guild). I definitely played a different role online then I did in real life.
It all comes down to, as the last post said, your definition of role-playing.
First, we have to realize that one of the features of language is that the meanings of words are malleable and subject to context. This kind of discussion can disintegrate into trying to define “role-playing” and “game” and “role-playing game”, which tends to end up not really illuminating anything. You just can’t get hung up on terms and have to try to understand what each person meant by each term in its specific context.
I can’t say anything about World of Warcraft itself because I’ve never played it. I can say that computer/console role-playing games I’ve played—solitaire or multiplayer-online—are completely different experience for me than face-to-face role-playing games. I enjoy both, but they scratch different itches.
To me the defining thing about a role-playing game is that the rulings and the world are a present person rather than a rule book or a computer. (I say “present” because the books and software are, of course, created by people, but they aren’t there participating in the game directly as you play.) For me—let me repeat that: FOR ME—computer role-playing games aren’t what I call role-playing games at all.
Gus said, “it’s like everything you wish you could find in a video game but cannot.” To me that’s the crux of it. A good face-to-face role-playing game is going to gloss over the things that a computer game can do better. Likewise, it is going to take full advantage of the things that a computer game can’t do better. Have you ever thought in a computer game, “Oh, I ought to be able to just do ____.” In a face-to-face role-playing game, providing it is a reasonable thing and you have a reasonable judge running the game, you can. It doesn’t matter whether any game designers or developers anticipated the possibility. The judge just makes the ruling.
Speaking and thinking in-character is indeed a big part of it too, although—to me—the term “role-playing game” says more than just that.
Now, I’ve seen people play face-to-face role-playing games these days almost exactly like computer role-playing games. (People tell me this was done back-in-the-day, but I never saw it back then.) So, if you participate in a face-to-face game, and it doesn’t seem very different to you, I’d suggest being open to trying it again with another group that has a different style of play.
Also, don’t let an inexperienced or unreasonable judge turn you off. And don’t make the mistake of thinking that rules can turn a bad judge into a good one. Only experience and maturity can do that. Trying to fix a bad judge with rules just degrades that thing that (at least in my point-of-view—YMMV) makes these games special.
J you always manage to find something that I had previous put very little thought into. I have played WOW for just over a year now (granted mine is on PVP). It might just be me but I have a very personal attachment to my character. I play a priest because if I was traveling in party I would want to be the person my party could depend on in times of crisis. I even get a bit offended when people try to tell me what my name means in Spanish (Laputa is the name of the flying castle in Castle in the Sky and an place in Gulliver’s Travels thank you very much).
Now I admit I don’t speak in character or anything like that but I find the game to be more meanful if I understand their reasoning. For that reason my short time playing a Draenei Shaman, I was more into the game because the storyline was more up my alley so to speak (it seems only logically to fix something because you are responisble).
I would highly recommend trying a table top rpg (in person with other people if possible). It is a great way to hang out with your friends and have an adventure. Plus I am a big fan of rolling actual dice. ^_^
I think that MMORG’s are roleplaying. You create a character that isn’t you and do things that you cannot do in real life, for the most part.
So, in the strictest of terms, you are taking on a role and playing a game in that role. From what I have seen, people get into the mental and emotional aspects of that role no more or less than the average player in a tabletop game.
There are video games which are roleplaying games.
Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect and Fallout 3 all have you make decisions which change the game.
WoW doesn’t. Neither do any other MMOs in my experience. They are far too generic, there is no cause and effect, and TBH even trying to RP on the RP servers in WoW isn’t much fun compared to doing it at a table top.
.-= Hammer´s last blog ..RPG Blog Carnival – Mistakes, I’ve Made A Few =-.
I’m honestly a bit amazed by people saying “it can’t be done” when all such gaming as is being discussed is, fundamentally, storytelling. Story creation can be cooperative, between DM and players, or it can arise in your head and in your gut in reaction to game situations or between players. @elderac’s comment is most on-target in my experience: “people get into the mental and emotional aspects of that role no more or less than the average player in a tabletop game.” It’s highly personal but it definitely can and does happen — and not rarely, to judge by the people I’ve seen playing for the last several decades in many conditions from tabletop, to console, to MMORGs whether WoW or others.
I think Ben was right when he said you need to define ‘roleplaying’ first.
My initial response to the OP was honestly, “are you kidding me? MMO’s as roleplaying? How could anyone even ask that?”
Of course, after reading some 17 responses and properly digesting them, I come to a socially-amended answer. f2f or online games with a live moderator and an open-ended amount of PC choices are necessary for real roleplaying.
Robert Fisher above is close to my feelings that for a true immersive RP, even if you can’t ‘get into the head of the character’, you need to have a level of ‘response freedom’ for real RolePlaying.
The OP mentions a ‘Beer-swilling dwarf’. If that character can choose a favorite beer, ask what beers are drunk, learn about brewing, buy or build a brewery (both choices and more need to be available), can be drunk in the game, can argue that he’s been drinking long enough to deserve a reduction in a beer-drinking penalty….
if those options and more choices to build that direction of the character’s personality are available, then yes, you have the potential for real, 100% roleplaying.
if not, you are not barred from playing part of a role, but in my humble, it is a watered down roleplay, watered down by the paucity or richness of the personality-growing choices.
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Well I guess WoW can technically be called a RPG, but in the same way you can call pong a video game. I mean you can play D&D totally hack & slash with very little role playing, and you’re still playing a RPG.
Personally, I don’t really see WoW as a RPG. For me a RPG is more about the storyline and more immersive. Games like Neverwinter Nights or Knights of the Old Republic I would call solid RPGs for the computer.
I also don’t think WoW being a MMO makes it less a RPG, as Star Wars Old Republic MMO is supposed to be more about Story. I think it’s going to be a solid RPG.
Holy cow, guys! I’m trying to sort through and absorb everything. Here’s where I’m at so far: Every game can be more or less about roleplaying, depending on what you and others put into it; video games may or may not allow enough decision-making and customization; I’m missing out by not trying other kinds of RPGs.
Seriously, thanks for the awesome discussion, everyone. You’re the best, and I’m actually learning something.
Frankly, coming from an early D&D background…steering clear of MMORPGS like WoW, and sticking almost entirely to MUDs…I would have to simply say that the more complicated and flashy a game gets, the less avenues a character has to develop personal choice and full depth character stories.
Think about it: If you are working an RP within a game like WoW or Fallout 3, the choices are predetermined for you, the chaos factor is completely negated. You can do this OR that…you cannot create a story completely your own to affect a situation, a group or a realm.
Within a D&D campaign, or in an RP enforced MUD, your choices are literally limited only to the mythos of the game and your own imagination.
My two cents.