Dear Anon-O-Box,
Everyone says that you need to be a total a**hole for girls to like you. But geeks girls are smarter than most so they should know better, right? But the “Mr. Nice Guy” approach doesn’t work either. What gives?
J answers:
Okay, first of all, I’d like to meet the “everyone” who says this. More specifically, do they tend to be male or female?
Here’s the thing: NO ONE likes to be treated poorly. Some people might be drawn to certain personalities that wind up being negative, but hardly anyone consciously seeks out someone that they think will treat THEM badly.
So, what about all those women that say they like “bad boys,” you ask? We’ll delve a little into that, but the main point?
When women say they like “bad boys,” or “dangerous types,” they are expecting to be the exception to the rule.
Sure, he’s a rough-and-tough biker, but not at home! He’ll get in a knife fight, but is protective of women and children! This is – dare I say, a trope? – that is portrayed over and over again in movies and literature.
In fact, think of most modern depictions of vampires. Sure, he was already 170 when you were born, and most humans resemble a Dairy Queen cookie-dough Blizzard to him, but! Not you. With you, it’s Twoo Wuv.
Why might a woman be attracted to a “bad boy” in the first place? Well, our preferences are often shaped by the life we’ve led. Maybe she was once taken advantage of by a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Now, she prefers guys who have their flaws out on display, as horrible as they may be, because she feels she’s made an informed decision (and is taking control of her life, in a way).
Maybe she’s led a life in which she has felt unsafe. Someone “dangerous” and willing to take care of her might make her feel safer.
The problem, of course, occurs when the woman is not the exception to the rule, and the “bad boy” treats her just as poorly as everyone else.
Oh, and then there are the women who are able to see the wounded creature under the roaring and bravado, and for whatever reason seek the challenge, with mixed results.
So that covers the type of guy that is very obviously intimidating or unstable. However, the arch-nemesis of the geek is more often The Douchebag – the jock, the arrogant one. The guys that are scrawny but nonetheless look like they belong on Tool Academy. Why might a woman find herself with one of these guys?
Women who are attracted to The Douchebag tend to mistake bravado for confidence.
It’s in our nature to be attracted to confidence, but sometimes we make mistakes, plain and simple. It’s not limited to women – haven’t you ever noticed that sometimes it’s the loudest kids on the playground who become popular, regardless of what kind of people they are?
Other times, they might be attracted to an aspect other than personality – looks, social standing, whatever. The underlying rule remains, though: typically they are expecting to be treated well, even though the guy is… well, a douchebag.
At this point you’re probably thinking that all women are misguided or easily led or psychologically damaged. The fact is, most women can see right through the douchebags and the bad boys. “But my Mr. Nice Guy routine doesn’t work!” you think. Well, maybe it’s because you were consciously affecting a character – Mr. Nice Guy – instead of, you know, being yourself.
Pretending to be nice, when you’re not, is creepy.
Ever see the movie Just Friends? Aside from being worth a watch just for the hysterical Anna Faris, there’s actually some interesting commentary as various characters attempt to be the Nice Guy, the Jerk, and everything in-between. I’m getting creeped out right now, just thinking of Chris Klein being a “sensitive guy.”
When guys actively try to be what they consider “nice,” they tend to venture into a world of negative behaviors: deferring opinions and decisions, holding conversations where every word is calculated… sometimes they even get an unnatural voice going on. When you’re acting all the time, you’re mentally removed from the relationship. You’ll probably wind up building resentment and losing respect for the woman, instead of forming a bond. It’s just as bad as pick-up artist techniques.
Ultimately, pretending to be something you’re not might work in the short term, whether it’s being a “jerk” or being “nice,” but it’s not going to find you love. If a long-term relationship is what you’re looking for, then being genuine is your best bet. And most women can tell the difference – smart geek girls especially. 
Stay gold, geek friends.
About Anon-O-Box
I agree wholeheartedly with what Anon says. Above everything else, girls like guys who are genuine. It’s not a question of ‘Mr Nice guy’ or ‘Bad Boy’ (which btw, we should just throw out the window because they are big cliches) but whether a guy is being honest with himself and others.
Unfortunately I would have to agree with everyone a little here. The Just Friends analogy is perfect… Let’s say a girl goes to the bar every week, and every week different guys…the big biker type, the metro, the nerd boy… a different guy comes up to her and uses the same mask? They are nice, they want to know about her, they buy her a drink… It’s such a artificial enviroment that she subconsciously ignores the guy because the scenario is fake/deja vu… J, you mention no girl consciously seeks out to be treated badly, but it’s mostly the subconscious mind that truly decides what is actually perceived as attraction/love.
Back to the bar… If a guy came up to the girl and acted a bit of a creep and changed up… Said hello, asked about her but ignored when she talked, then bummed a drink off her…the lack of positive attention would actually shock her into awareness…the fact that she’s noticed him at all could cause her to over analyze her feelings for him, which starts a base attraction. I’ve gotten many numbers and free drinks this way. … While I’m ‘normally’ a nice guy, very simply, it’s overdone.
If you act a total D-bag, it’s hit/miss. I was at a club the other day and this guy showed up wasted, was dancing like a fool, bumping into people…I saw him dance with 2 lovely ladies, get numbers from 2 others, and made 4 others run away. He was hanging with some non-drunk friends, so if he has nice friends, he must be nice too, and just had a little too much to drink. Sadly I see D-bad’s do better then nice guys, at bars anyway. The nice guy fail ratio plays out in most locations…plus the attractiveness is a fluxing variable that effects the percentage of making a connection (niceness / hotness = % of failure).
I would primarily suggest neutral first impressions. Nice guys usually seem too perfect to deal/overbearing/confidence mistaken for ego (oh boy do I get that alot, hehehe)/fake, and even if you manage to take a girl out, the first impression could be too good for you to live up to over the course of the relationship. It’s like taking a girl out for lobster the first date…then asking her out for pizza next week, it usually doesn’t work out well… Bad guys usually seem, well, bad…which means there is a desire to ‘fix them’ or ‘maybe they just need someone in their lives’ or other excuses, which usually stems from bad parental relations, but I won’t break out Freud here…
… If I see an attractive person I want to talk to… I imagine them as a homely looking old person on a long bus trip. Very bland, casual conversation to pass the time and get to know… Once some initial comfort is gained, along with the knowledge of common interests/beliefs, then worry about being ‘yourself’. That’s my thoughts…
genuine is defently the way to go.
I would throw the nice/bad guy out the window. for me, if i think in these terms, i see the ‘nice’ guy as a shy, desperate person, and the ‘bad’ guy as someone who knows what he wants and is willing to say what he’s thinking. Sometimes ‘bad’ guys aren’t d-bags, but just someone who’s stopped caring what the world thinks of him. And thats the kind of person i really prefer.
Don’t buy me a drink because you think you should to talk to me. Don’t be aggressive because it seems like that might be what i want. Be yourself, and don’t worry about the rest.
these sterotypes really jar me, and if anyone who’s talking to me isn’t just being them, thats the biggest turn off of all.
Two things that come up over and over:
– genuine works; fake does not;
– confidence works; insecurity does not.
The combination of the two is why you need to feel good about yourself. If you don’t feel good about yourself, you portray either fake confidence, or genuine insecurity. So if you’re one of those, take a good look at yourself and make up your mind to fix or improve the things you can change, and to accept the ones you cannot.
Also, get rid of the notion that you cannot be happy without a mate. Having a partner can make a happy person happier, but should never be thought of as necessary to make an unhappy person happy. I wouldn’t want to be a partner to someone who depended upon me for her happiness, nor would I ever wish to be dependent upon her for mine. I would much rather be responsible for my own happiness, and she for hers, so we could help each other.
Well said Mwalimu!
I agree with the non-need… As for genuine, well, let me use myself as an example. I’m a physist that went into marketing, a bookworm who teaches martial arts…currently working in studies of behavioural psychology while I custom paint/sell collectible Star Wars toys to pay for my schooling… … So what is the genuine me? I…adapt to pretty much any setting/scenrio with perfect comfort…I could people watch from a corner stole or dancing all night on the floor, i’m still me…
While I am abit extreme in the diversity of my own interests, everyone has multiple sides to who they are and it takes time to show the ‘genuine’ you… When first approaching someone, you have to decide thou…what side of ‘you’ comes off the best? More important, what side would come off best to the person you are approaching? Again, myself as an example…
If I approach a cute girl wearing glasses reading a book (my usual type, hehe), I would strike up conversation based around what she was reading along with my experience with the subject…my confidence level would be based on how withdrawn she was to make sure she was the most comfortable.
If I met a girl ringside at a boxing event, I would have a high level of confidence (if she’s alone, front row of a boxing event, good chance she is attracted to aggression), casual shouts about the fight, then during rest periods mention out some of my own fights from my ‘younger days’, keeping an active observation of any kind of physical contacts she makes towards me (slap/punches when a knockout happens).
My normal-normal self? … Never leave the house and avoid contact with most of humanity *LAUGH*… So anytime I communicate with someone, one could call me ‘fake’, but my social meter occasionally needs to be filled…and while the ‘genuine’ me, the general consensus says is fascinating, relaying ALL the details during a first conversation (or within those first 10 seconds that most people make their opinion) is an impossibility.
I hope this all makes sense… The point is basically, just because you portray yourself slightly out of the norm when getting to know a person does not mean you are fake or non-genuine… Never lie about who you are, but there is no harm in ‘leading with your best foot forward’.
we do all have multiple sides, its true. that doesn’t make you non-guinuine. for me, i don’t really ‘think’ about what i should say. I just do what comes from the heart. I don’t base my interactions on what i think someone would want.
worring about her comfort, makes assumptions based on what little your seeing. That book reading girl and the boxing girl could be the same girl. She may not want or need you to be considering her in this way. In that sense, i’d be turned off by the behavior. That whole process of deciding what will come off best, oftentimes feels forced, and non-guiniune. even if we have different parts, the part that comes naturally, and not over-thought out is the way to go. I think, anyways. to much effort makes my creep factor go off.
@mwalimu – So true. I always appreciate your comments.
re: happiness w/o a mate -
I just got done reading the Twilight series (cuz hey, I’ve got mono, I need light reading!!), and one of the things that bothered me so much about Bella was that she considers her life to be forfeit without Edward. If he’s not around, if he’s not going to love her, she’s worthless and better off dead. Drove me absolutely nuts. I wanted to punch her in the face for all four books.
“Just Be Yourself” doesn’t work. Consider: someone just told you “girls don’t like me” and the general response is “be more like yourself.” What?
The issues nice guys (I’m a huge nerd too, still like to consider myself a “nice guy”.. D&D, vidja games, computer science, classic literature, etc.) tend to have are related to confidence, social intelligence, and non-neediness. Succinctly, “nice guys” think that girls don’t like being hit on (and are virginal goddesses, which they are not. I’ve never met a geeky/”nice” girl who wasn’t awesome in bed. No idea why that is.) and therefore take a ridiculously slow and ponderous attempt at seduction. This is not confident.
“Nice Guys” also tend to be the shut-in type, which lowers their level of social intelligence (awkward jokes etc.) and this has nothing to do with “being a nice guy.” It’s just awkward.
Non-neediness was addressed, but it applies to basically everyone I’ve ever trained. If you approach a girl wanting sex or a girlfriend, it’s not going to work. Instead, you’re not even out to meet friends, you just want to have a good time, she seemed interesting and you want to talk to her. If she ends up being cool enough to see again, you exchange info and … that’s all she wrote.
.-= Fawkes´s last blog ..Ten =-.
squish: … I genuinely giggle when I say your name out loud
. As for worrying/comfort, we ALL do this… Everyone possesses a rudimentary subconscious empathy…when a friend is upset, you automatically switch to understanding mode…when someone challenges your beliefs, most switch to a defensive mode. If we see someone is uncomfortable, we adjust our behavior on what we feel sub/consciously would help ease that comfort (unless one is totally narcissistic). I am not trying to betray, simply years of psychology helps me understand and relay the subtle nuances that most fail to see.
The girl reading the book or boxing match COULD be the same girl…cause I’m the same guy… But I can tell you if I was at a boxing match and a girl came up, started discussing Garret Lisi’s latest theory with me, I would ask her to let me watch the fight… If I was reading a book in the library and a girl came over, sat next to me, punched me in the arm and said “Hey man, you see the fight last night?” I would SSHHHHHHHHHHHH her…
everyone: I am enjoying the different opinions of male/female… Females say be yourself, males say it don’t work… Females say they are only attracted to genuine, males say adjust your approach based on the girls, and you’ll have better success… On a personal site do you cut/paste the same message to every person or do you respond based on information they wrote??? The big keyword is genuine…
So here is a very simple experiment for all the boys and girls. Think back to your relationships, friends and lovers… Can you honestly say that you/they act the EXACT same way from the moment you met them to today (or the moment you last spoke with them)? They were not extra friendly? More generous? More shy? … Can you HONESTLY say that you knew the GENUINE person inside as soon as you knew them? That big muscular football fan you instantly knew was a sweet caring person, even thou you knew him two years until you ever saw him cry? That nerd boy you knew was a bad ass, even thou you knew him 9 months before you ever saw him stand up for himself? …
Or to REALLY simplify… Can you honestly say every person you had one date with, you married and led a long happy life?!?!? … Usually takes me three dates before I decide if we can put up with each other…a few years before I can genuinely know somebody, and this is with years of education on the subject of interpersonal relationships. The instant gratification complex shown within romantic movies is a nice thought, but such connection are rare… You can wait for the love lottery, or you could work towards something more…
i think there is a difference here in how we use the word genuine. You seem to be using it to mean “all parts” or to speak about fully knowing someone. I do not mean it that way.
plus people change. so of course they aren’t the same 9 months later. That doesn’t mean what you saw at the time wasn’t real.
I’d like to know if the guys saying ‘it works’ means “it worked that night, the first time and now im married happily” or “it worked that night, and eventually i found someone” the later of which is simply a numbers game, and other approaches would have the same ‘luck’
Honestly, I think there’s a lot of overthinking going on here. Yes, we subconsciously modify our responses based on the situation – we might speak to a teacher differently than a peer, for example. But most of the time, we don’t actually THINK about the proper response.
UNLESS you have a known, pre-existing problem with social awareness (which obviously would require more specialized advice) I think some people need to get a little less overtly cerebral and go with their gut a little more. If you’re thinking, “this girl might respond well to an aggressive approach,” you’re overthinking it. Maybe being more “in the moment” won’t work for you – but it might.
Now, on a subconscious level we’re probably analyzing every second and adjusting our behavior accordingly – but I say leave that job up to the subconscious, where it belongs.
@Fawkes – The guy did not tell me “girls don’t like me.” He told me his “Mr. Nice Guy approach” wasn’t working for him. To you, it might all be semantics, but to me, it tells me something about the way he’s approaching the whole thing. Now maybe I’M overthinking.
squish: Yes, as I stated the word ‘genuine’ does seem to be the issue/misunderstanding through most of this. By any definition that could be applied to the word, my question would be, how do you KNOW genuine? That was sort of my statement with meeting/instantly knowing/marrying, sort of a self reflection of how many times have we all found the WRONG one but it started out ‘so right’?
As for the ‘guys it works’ for… That was pretty much the same question I posed so i’m unsure how to respond, as I was looking more for data then to explain.
J: There is always over thinking when it comes to dating (that’s why so many are so bad at it, specially the smart ones)…but you have made us think, which IS a good thing when someone is writing online
. As you referenced the ‘aggressive approach’, I was explaining a situation from a reflective perspective of how subconsciously I changed my interactions, I do not encourage anyone to put that much active thought into communicating with someone… If it worked, you’d have to put that much effort into EVERY communication…any idea what kind of TIME that would take??? Exhausted just imagining it!
Larry, honestly, I give people the benefit of the doubt UNLESS my instinct to run gets turned on. otherwise, i assume they aren’t trying to play me. I kind of go with J here, I just go with my gut.
I also don’t think in terms of right or wrong when it comes to relationships. That is, what is good for me at this time, may not be later. Thats didn’t make it wrong, just transitory. But I don’t really look for “the right one” myself. I have found that every relationship I’ve been in had meaning. And still has meaning, even after the fact. So how could that be wrong?
squish: That makes a lot more sense. Your initial comments that stereotypes/fakes turn you off, was a bit confusing as I was trying to understand how you determined they were not acting like themselves, when you didn’t really know them…and my responses were based on trying to figure out this process… Now ‘going with you gut’ I can understand as I live my own life based on intuition
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larry: apologies. Im an artist, not a writer ;] Not always good at being clear.
squish: No need to apologize, I tend to take peoples sayings abit to literally myself…main reason I started studying psychology was to understand what people were trying to say past what they were saying, so to speak… … So, artist? Draw/write/sing? I can make a pretty mean stick figure
!
I have two questions for you:
1. Do opposites attract?
2. Are most women assholes?
Thank you and good night.
I think the reality is that what most guys are lacking is a sense of true direction in life. When there’s direction in what they do, they tend to be more confident, they also come off as being a secure provider. Security is huge for women I find and the fact that being able to feel different emotions is important in any relationship.
Nice guys are manipulative, they secretly wish and are brooding and that’s a huge turnoff. A women doesn’t want to be with a boy…she wants to be a with a man someone with an opinion, someone who has personality, and someone with true character and confidence.
The point is to be both the a-hole and the nice guy. But the trick is to know when to you use both at the right times.
.-= Vincent Ng- Conversation Arts´s last blog ..10 Places to Meet the Person of Your Dreams =-.
Damned if you and damned if you don’t.
When I first meet people, I’m alway nice. It’s not a case of trying to be, it’s simple good manners and part of my personality. You don’t meet someone and start mouthing off or ripping the piss in the way you can and do with people who you’ve known for longer.
As you get to know someone, various barriers do come down, you start to make jokes you might not otherwise have made and so on. It’s part of getting to know one another.
Personally, I’ve found being myself (a mixture of nice, cynical and sarcastic) has made me a lot of friends and very few romantic connections, so I suppose that reflects some of the above.
.-= Hammer´s last blog ..Taking Inspiration From Conspiracy – The Steam Reserve =-.
Let me weigh in, if I may. I’m no Casanova, but I don’t do half badly either.
First Point: Yes, I agree with the girls here, it is vital to be genuine. I don’t know about you, but I’m not enough of an actor to pretend to be a male yamato nadeshiko OR a hulking philistine. So I long ago decided not to be a Nice Guy OR a Bad Boy. I’d start monologuing on Chinese fairytales or Latin verb forms, anyway, and I’d get the sparkle in my eye and the lilt in my voice, and any such mask would be shattered anyway.
More importantly, trying to put on that mask would involve denying myself. I hate eating at expensive restaurants, so why should I take a girl there to show her how nice I am? I’d rather eat at the hole-in-the-wall Chinese place, where they all know me, the food’s good, and the prices cheap or fair. I’d rather take her there, and have a good time. Or let’s say I put on the Bad Boy mask. I don’t like being an asshole, period. So why should I do so?
It makes her uncomfortable, and more importantly, it makes me uncomfortable. And you don’t want to be any more uncomfortable than necessary.
SO!
Having established that genuineness is necessary, how do we get it?
Second Point: You can’t be genuine. The more you try, the more you miss. It took me the longest damn time to figure this one out. I finally got it only after asking out a writer I was working with, and we spent the rest of the day doing … whatever seemed like the best next idea. So you have to forget about being genuine for a minute, distract yourself. Get interested in her book. Everything is interesting from the right angle, and if you really find it boring, ask her what she finds so interesting about it. Forget yourself, and you’ll be fine. However…
Third Point: Don’t be an asshole. Some of you will take this to heart, and say, “she should appreciate how much I belch, sweat and swear! It’s genuine!” Genuine it may be, it’s also unpleasant. So, I’m going to say “be yourself.” But I’m going to amend it, “be your BEST self.” I don’t know about you, but I like how I feel when I’m clean, shaved, and dressed in a crisp blue linen shirt and khakis. I also like how I feel when I can do something nice for someone else. So when I go out, I like to wear good clean clothes and be polite. Not Nice, but polite. Holding the door open, say, or insisting on paying for my round of drinks. I don’t have to be a jerk, and I don’t have to bend over backwards. It makes me feel good, and it makes me feel confident.
Fourth Point: “But!” you say, “this is so much to take care of at once! I have to be polite, but not a pushover. I have to respect my own boundaries, but not be a jerk. I have to be genuine, but not rude. How do I do it?” My best suggestion is to go out and meet people you’d like to know. This will be harder for some of us than others. I, personally, like talking to people. They are usually interesting.
So go to games night at the university, walk up to a table, introduce yourself, and ask if you could join the game. If that doesn’t work, pull out a copy of Settlers of Cataan and ask if anyone wants to play. Ask who they are, what their major is, what they want to do with that, etc. Get to know them. Ask them what they thought of Iron Man 2 or if they’ve ever read Mercedes Lackey. If you feel sporting, ask about their religion or politics. Crack a joke or two.
Plan to look stupid the first few times. Get comfortable with that idea right now, and get it over with. Ray Bradbury said you have to write one thousand bad stories before your first good one. I can safely say, having done both, you learn a lot quicker how to act in social situations. It’s hardwired into you, all you have to do is get out of your own way and let yourself learn to adapt. “The way to learn to fly is to throw yourself at the ground, get distracted, and miss.”
And then, some girl with a quick grin and a glint of mischief in one eye sits down next to you…and you’re already comfortable, you’re having a good time with your new friends, and you turn to her and you ask if she’d like to play. And you’re smiling, and laughing, and confident, and you’re enjoying yourself so you can’t help but be genuine. And she likes that. And she asks you your name.
After that, that’s a whole other discussion. But after that basically boils down to “do what naturally comes next.” You already know, or will, when you get there.
.-= Roscoe´s last blog ..The Town of Prescott v. some school =-.
Roscoe…you are possible one of the coolest people on the internet…ever… I sincerely bow to your awesomeness…
if your damned either way, why do i know so many wonderful geeks in wonderful relationships? that seems… contrary.
I personally, will make the same dirty joke the day you’ve meet me as i would weeks later. I don’t want someone to first like me because im not being who i am. Either like me or don’t like me. I don’t like everyone in the world, but they are human, and i don’t mind sharing the planet with them.
@fry, i don’t understand your question.
@larry squish-art.com and squish-paintings.com
OP here.
Actually…I did kind of mean that my normal, genuine “Mr. Nice Guy” attitude towards girls doesn’t really work. Since J and Fawkes were talking about that a few posts ago. (Sorry, J…I guess they really just don’t like me.)
On the other hand, when you do want to impress someone you do generally try to be nicer to them, right? So, while it’s not a fake approach, it is still an approach. You’re choosing to put your best foot forward, be extra nice and polite and open and friendly hoping to impress someone. So all of this talk about how to approach a girl still pretty much holds true.
If being nicer isn’t who you are, then in a few months or so, that will wear off, and suddenly that person you appeared to be wasn’t really. So no, I wouldn’t want someone to be nicer to me on the first free dates to impress me, because then i’ve been given an expectation of the person that can’t hold up over a long term situation.
really anyone who is “hoping to impress” me, isn’t someone i really want to date. Now i know thats not true for all the girls, but it is true for me. So take that with a grain of salt.
Excellent observations and feedback Larry.
This is a simple issue I think. No guy in the history of guys has ever self-described as a “nice guy” when he didn’t mean “Doormat”. Just like when girls describe themselves as “A little overweight” they don’t usually mean that. That’s not to say there aren’t nice guys or slightly overweight girls, they just usually get couched in different terms. He’s be a “cool guy” or a “fun guy” and she’d be “curvy” or “squeezable” or whatever.
The Nice Guy vs Asshole comparison makes it especially clear. This guy is as much as saying “I don’t get it! I fawn all over her like the perfect goddess on a pedestal she is, but those assholes who don’t appreciate her are the ones she’s interested in dating!”
O.K. I admit. that’s a lot of reading into a 4 sentence question. Maybe Mr. OP doesn’t mean that at all. (and he’s 2 posts up, so he should feel free to correct me if I’m dead wrong)
But, I think it’s a very common viewpoint that too many guys get stuck on, and that leads to queries JUST like the one you got. Your advice “Be yourself” is dead on, because there’s a HUGE difference between a normal nice guy and “please walk all over me” nice guy. So if you’re THAT nice guy, OP remember that THAT nice guy is a little creepy, and not attractive, and you’d do better reminding yourself she’s just another person, and then going and talking to her like you would your friends (minus anything she might deem offensive obviously). “Have you seen the new XYZ movie? I caught it with my friends last weekend, TOTALLY worth the price of admission!” is so much better than staring at her dewy eyed and agreeing to every word that comes out of her mouth.